Mystery Model: Citroen DS ID20 F Safari Wagon
I’m curious how many of our readers have ever experienced buying a car that’s represented as a cream puff but ends up being a lemon? It happened to yours truly twice in my younger years. Unbeknownst to me, my Grand Prix had overheated not long before I bought it to the point that a head was warped, and on my drive home steam started coming out of the tailpipe. You can probably guess the rest. A few years later I bought a 40k-mile Olds with a 307, and I did make it nearly a hundred miles before the oil light came on, a 5W-30 “self-changer” so to speak. The seller of this Citroen DS ID20 F Safari Wagon feels he was also misled, and now he’s trying to sell the car at a loss. If you’d like to fix it up, the wagon can be found here on eBay, with bidding at $5,200 with the reserve not yet reached.
The Citroen’s owner says he bought the car earlier this year for almost $20,000 from a classic car dealer but feels like it wasn’t entirely represented honestly before he made the purchase. One of the issues involves some electrical malfunctions, which the seller thinks began when the car was taken apart to be repainted. It seems that when it was reassembled, some of the switches and lights weren’t put back on correctly, and as a result, the turn signals and headlights aren’t functioning. He also cites some rust in the body, mainly in the doors and non-structural panels. But judging from the pictures, it actually looks pretty good on the outside, at least at first glance.
Some good news is lurking from under the hood, as the 4-cylinder engine is said to fire up instantly whether it’s hot or cold. It’s recently received a new fuel pump and new filters, plus the valves have had some adjustment, and it’s said to now be running and sounding great. The 4-Speed manual is stated as shifting properly and the clutch is in great working order, leaving only the brakes as the one mechanical component mentioned as perhaps needing some attention.
Nothing at all is specifically stated about the interior, although it seems to be in acceptable condition for a driver. But something the owner does point out that’s a bit concerning is one paperwork detail regarding the Citroen. The car was imported over here from the Netherlands a while back, and for some reason, the title is showing the year model as 1973. That’s incorrect, as the seller says it’s a ’70 or ’71, and given the fact that we’re not provided with a VIN I’d probably want to talk with the owner about this discrepancy and find out why before I made my bid. What are your thoughts on this Citroen Wagon?
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Comments
Beings the dealer they bought it from is in California,
I would first contact them to see if they’d make things right.
If that doesn’t work,report that dealer to the State of California,
& threaten to sue them,as California has some tough consumer
laws.
I had this happen to me on a MKI Cortina GT.It was
partly my fault for rushing in on the sale.When I sold it –
(at a loss) I went out of my way to point out all of the flaws
in it that I was aware of.The buyer was very happy with it.
This is one thing that really bothers me about BaT
& other sites like that.Some buyers pay stupid money sight-
unseen,& when it shows up it’s not as advertised,& auction-
site has no power to correct things.
With BaT the buyer has a week to order a pre purchase inspection. 99% of the people selling on BaT are transparent, open to videos and hundreds of pictures plus visual documentation when possible. You’d be lucky if 50% of classic car dealers are that honest (case in point), plus they want above retail much of the time, where as BaT is usually pretty spot on with reserves and of course “no reserve” is quite accurate. How much time are you allowed to vet a vehicle at Mecum or Barrett Jackson? I bought a Porsche 911 on BaT and it was accurate in its representation upon seeing it in person.
Back in the days when I was a classic car dealer I made a point of telling the prospective buyers everything I knew about the faults that the car/bike had. Anybody can SEE how good a car/bike is but they have no way of KNOWING the faults that may show up in double quick time unless told about them beforehand. I never had a comeback, apart from a Chev that had previously had metal stitching to the cylinder head that the seller hadn’t informed me of, so I replaced it at great expense but the buyer became a great free advert for my business and pre sold several of my stock through our relationship. Word of mouth can be a very valuable, or invaluable, asset.
Poor guy probably bought it from Beverly Hills Car Club. I know how it can be if you felt like you got a raw deal on a car. Sometimes just fixing it up isn’t enough to separate you from a sour experience and just moving it on is the only way to feel better. I did that one time but In my case I went ahead and fixed the car out of necessity. I ended up liking the car but every time I looked at it it reminded me of the individual who was dishonest and had a poor moral compass.
That being said I would be more than happy to buy a car from someone like this who is being transparent and genuine. Would love to bid to own but as usual timing is everything.
The turn signals are common on all makes of older cars. It can stem from grounding wire not connected properly and making good contact to turn signal switch, tail lights , adding ground to tail lights etc.
Brakes are usually neutral safety switch.
I agree wires are painful but not ending to let car go. Its get one item working then the next etc.
Contact dealer, get on a Citroen forum and someone will assist with their similar issues.
Good luck 🍀
Most of us have got fleeced a time or two. For me it was 65 olds 88 for a few hundred. Nice old guy said it was his wife’s car, and it ran good, bad starter, towed it home. When I got it “running” it knocked and smoked. It started on fire after I beat on it. It turned out ok when I found a toolbox left in the trunk. Figured we were even. Been using some of those tools for 25 years. 🔧
Can hardly think of any car I’ve purchased that didn’t turn out to be lemon needing substantial work to get it driving and past the mandatory government safety and emission tests. My Mercedes W124’s rear exhaust box falling off two weeks after its’ purchase comes to mind. Oh, and a Honda Accord I bought that had the brake fluid reservoir full of engine oil. I’m grateful to be walking for the moment. It’s cheaper!
I bought my first Honda in 1979 and owned several through the years, then moved up to the Acura for 20 years…. never once had a problem with any of them….. but I hated Mercury with the Monarch and Chevy with the Impala (except for my first SS back in 65).. which is why I stay with Honda all those years…. Never once did a Honda leave my wife stranded and I had to drive to bring her home and then call AAA to go pick it up (Ford and Chevy)….
A fellow I knew was a longtime Honda specialist. I came across his wife stranded in the middle of a major intersection in a car with his business’s name prominently displayed on the sides. Hondas may not break down as often as other brands, but they do.
Awesome looking car. I’ve seen the Citroen DS, but I’ve never seen an ID. I would loved to have a car like this if only there was a service network to keep them running and operating properly.
This appears to be a proper DS, judging by the brake “mushroom button” on the floor, rather than the regular brake pedal fitted to the lower-spec ID variants.
What a shame feeling like you’ve been had, we have all gotten a lemon a time or two, or three! Have if had a handful of these over the years, you really need both eyes open buying one, having said that, it has also forced me to figure them out, find the right folks to answer the tough questions and parts networks, which there are plenty if you spend a little time to look. These are odd, unconventional and quirky, but well worth it to drive even in dilapidated condition. A few of mine had been real piles of junk, but I always managed to make them run and drive if nothing more than for the pure joy of it. My most recent is hibernating in the shop waiting for the sunny days of sprig to return.
Non matching numbers doesn’t bother me with engines and chassis, but if the paperwork doesn’t show the same number as the car that’s an end to the conversation.
Electrical troubles with a freshly painted vehicle are common, almost always an open circuit due to a lack of grounding.
I’d be more concerned about what other evils lurk under that shiny paint. It feels like the seller was in quite a hurry to get rid of this very interesting machine before something else broke/fell off/rusted to bits.
Why the hell are Americans so afraid of these cars? buy yourself a good maintenance manual. These cars are so easely to maintain. I know where I am speaking about, as I had 6 of them in different configurations and I am NOT a car engineer, only a loving car enthousiast.
The main problem, that can occur with the hydraulics is a leak in the piping. It does almost not have any electronics. And of course the rust worm, but as most frame parts are almost straight panels, they are easily to replace.
I bought a pickup on e-bay that was advertised as a daily driver. I had phone conversations with the seller several times before I picked it up. He lived on a steep hill. I got in, started it up and the brake pedal went right to the floor on the downhill. I fixed that, took it on the hiway. Hit a bump which sent me across 2 lanes and almost into a bridge abutment. The kingpins were bad. I made it home (over 500 miles) driving it 35mph. The seller did nothing for me and neither did e-bay.
I did own a 1970 Citroen ID21 wagon back in the late 1970s. What a quirky but wonderful ride. Drove it through the “Blizzard of ’78” without snow tires without a hitch. I swear it would go places a tank might not. The brakes on this car could be a difficult fix. The brake pedal resembles a mushroom flat on the floor. There is no breake pedal travel so to speak. Just your toe pressure activates the brakes through the hydraulic system.
Regarding your drive thru Blizzard of ’78 Jimbosidecar, Chicago had one whopper of a blizzard, Feb. ’67. It was a Friday, I was a grad student at Nwestern, rooming in Evanston. Snow started at noon that day, ended noon Sat. In 24 hrs, we got 24 INCHES of snow all over Chicago & burbs! Total lockup – except for my ’59 ID19, with its singlebolt near 16 in. rims with 165-400 mm Michelin X tires with halfworn tread.
Crawled thru the snow to the road, pumped car to high position, charged the snow, tires bit just fine without any shoveling whatsoever, dropped the suspension to bottom, pancaking the snow, played Lowrider all way to main plowed crosstreet, and never looked back all day. Had a ball using my towstrap to pull V8s out of ditches, snowbanks, with just the FWD and narrow tires which got much closer to pavement grip vs FAT hydroplaning tires of today.
Then both roomies joined me in the car and we drove all the way down into the Chicago Loop on Michigan ave, where NOTHING but us moved. Buses, trucks, cars, everything STUCK but my battered old Cit – driven coast to coast and halfway back to Chitown before entering NWestern. We had a blast! Next day every street corner had 10ft high snowpiles, lots of Chi cars had outer doorpanels sheared off by plow drivers who got too close! I never got stuck
Looking at lots of blizzard pics today, I think my DS could have gotten thru most everything shown – the adjustable suspension did the trick! Who needs 4WD?
I talked with BHCC several yrs ago about this very car, told them it was NOT a ’73, but they said that’s what was on the title, and wouldn’t change it. They of all people ought to have been able to update the car, so someone at their end wasn’t doing the homework.
And if you look VERY closely at the engine pic, you”ll see a strange aluminum conical cap – which caught my eye – as it’s nonstandard for the car. As I recall the car was set up for propane, but that wasn’t mentioned in the BHCC ad. and I think there was a tank in the back storage area. And with no closeup pics then of the chassis, and it being a Eurospec car, who knows what sort of rust was hiding in the monocoque chassis?
And there’s a bit of history out there re a certain seller with a similar name – worth a google? Even so, if the price stays below a certain level, it could be a bargain to a person who knows these cars inside & out. I’d even keep an eye on it myself if I didn’t already have 4 breaks – one of which I bought sight unseen over the web and found afterward it was severely misrepresented, but it turned out to have the best ride I’ve ever experienced in 60 yrs – due to some unknown prev. owner who really knew the cars, and that itself made the car almost worth my winning bid cost. And since then I’ve fixed the omitted problems, which any DS buyer should be prepared to expect., considering the age of all the cars now.
What I find interesting is the number of DSs which still survive! I contribute the high survivability of these cars to their unique and unparalleled genius and innovation in their designs, whether it be a DS, 2CV, CX, SM. They all outshine every other car brand by comparison, and are worth saving – almost regardless of found condition. The hydraulics may seem daunting, but I keep telling people “it’s just plumbing” – just very high pressure, but hardly higher than any car’s hydraulic brake system. AND the system leaves breadcrumbs when something goes wrong – electronics don’t dribble electrons, but Cits dribble fluid – visibly traceable without a silly computer or even a voltmeter!
We’re all different. As described I would be more inclined to give such a nice wagon a second chance, but the seller maybe just doesn’t want the hassle.
I just bid on it, sight unseen. I doubt I can meet whatever his reserve is, but I’d pay $10K plus shipping from Eugene to NJ. My wife would probably kill me, but you can’t ask for a better death.
As described, this ID20F is neither a 1970, 1971 or 1973. The battery on the passenger side with this front end means that it is most probably a 1969. It is very easy to find the actual model year by checking the serial number from Conservatoire Citroën.
So, if the serial number is between 3.980.501and 3.980.940 this is, in fact, a 1969 ID20F, the only year for this configuration.
Nevertheless, I’d be happy to see more photos.
Also turnsignal switches need a regrease after certain time.
Not only wheel bearings or engines. I dont think this is a
lemon just some work had been overseen after the repaint.
Also turnsignal switches need a regrease after certain time.
Not only wheel bearings or engines. I dont think this is a
lemon just some work had been overseen after the repaint.
Interesting how thoroughly the seller says “you win the bid, you bought it, but note it needs work to be driven “safely and legally” – warns everyone you have NO REcourse if you don’t like it, and he has to have the cash in hand BEFORE you can check it out, yet puts up so few photos with so little detail – yet appears to run a barn surrounded by all sorts of cars – mostly European. Doesn’t give me a sense of confidence. Buyer beware…….
His shop deals mostly with Land Rovers and specializes in engine swaps. The owner seems to like quirky European stuff, preferably with rock-solid bodies and major engine or drivetrain problems. Body & electrical & other non-drivetrain problems are not the focus so it takes longer to diagnose, troubleshoot & repair. That’s time better-used on swapping LS4s into Discos.
The way that the doors are slightly akimbo tells me that there may be rust hiding under that great paint, especially in the hinge perches.
Had I the indoor space to store it properly I would probably bid this out & park it until I was able to really go through it & assess its needs. I have never worked on these but am not worried.
As others have noted these are not difficult cars to repair; French literature may be obtuse, but their cars only look that way. The sheetmetal and the systems employed were as cutting-edge as a Moon rocket when designed in the mid-50s, but it’s *still* assembled with 50s tech.
Why couldn’t the Dukes of Hazzard drove these instead of Chargers?
There is a French noble title of duc des Cars. Paint these up in the French tri colour, slap an 01 in gold leaf and name it General Bonaparte.