Bring Bondo, Mohair, and Money: 1939 Packard Limousine
At one time, big prewar limousines were a hot commodity for restorers. These symbols of meticulous craftsmanship and ostentatious wealth were sought after for their rarity. With prewar prices falling and restoration costs reaching new heights, getting rid of one of these gargantuan beasts has become a tough sell. Or, looking at it from a different angle, one of these cars can be a bargain for a clever enthusiast. Take for example this 1939 Packard Super Eight Limousine for sale on eBay in Westfield, Massachusetts with a current bid of just $4,050. Is that good money for a straight eight Packard needing a full restoration, or a cheap way to get into a CCCA classic on a “pay as you go” restoration plan?
Packard was one of the few independent luxury car makers to survive the Great Depression. They did so by taking their legendary quality and engineering of their “Senior” lines and applying those qualities to the lower end of the luxury market in what came to be known as the “Junior” models. One of the major distinctions is that the lower-cost models, led by the 120, were mass-produced while the more expensive cars were still an exercise in hand-built craftsmanship. The firm still produced a dizzying array of body styles and price ranges that started with six-cylinder sedans and stretched to opulent open cars with powerful multi-cylinder engines.
The car you see here is an example of Packard’s Super Eight line from 1939. While on the upper range of Packard’s offerings, the Super Eight range was lightened and simplified during the 1937 model year. While no longer the gargantuan luxury cars of the past, these Packards could be considered the vehicles that brought the rest of Packard’s lineup into the modern era. Lessons learned from the smaller, mass-produced lines were brought to the upper end of the range. This Packard limousine didn’t stand out nearly as blatantly as previous coach-built models would have to an onlooker. However, opening the door to the passenger compartment revealed perhaps a quieter and even more luxurious space for those with the means to afford the best.
Despite Packard’s attempt to catch up with the modern automobile industry’s manufacturing efficiencies, their products were distinctly Packard. From the unique grill shape to the flowing soft lines of the body, a Packard was still a Packard. A quick look at the pictures and reading the description in the ad reveal such features as a divided interior, leather accommodations for the driver, jump seats, an eight-day clock, rear heat, plush upholstery, a cavernous rear compartment, and a smooth eight-cylinder engine backed with a three-speed manual transmission with overdrive.
It is that level of luxury and craftsmanship that makes this car a hard sell to collectors in 2023. The seller tells us that this car is a California car that was brought to Massachusetts some time ago and left waiting in storage for time and funds for restoration. Accepting that the project would never get off the ground, it is now being reluctantly offered for sale. The exhaustive description and ample photographs provided with the ad paint a picture of a car worth saving. There is little rust, the engine still turns despite decades of slumber, and it seems that all of the important bits and pieces are still present and accounted for.
That is where the good news ends. Restoring this car will take a whole lot of work, talent, and money. The front fenders need bodywork, especially the one on the driver’s side. It may end up being unrepairable if the new owner is going for a top-notch restoration. There is also some damage under the trunk and pinhole rust in one of the panels. Inside, the distinctive interior will need to be replaced from the seat padding to the headliner. With some prewar cars, interior replacement material already cut and sewn is just a click away. Not so with this Packard.
Under the hood, the straight eight is said to rotate without issue. It was last running in 1976. For all we know it may be just a fuel system cleanout and a carburetor rebuild away from smoothly purring again. Or there may have been issues when it last ran. Who knows? What we do know is that Packard engines had a reputation for extreme smoothness. A car of this caliber would almost require a proper rebuild by a professional schooled in Packard powerplants.
We fight the comments all the time about the cost of a restoration relative to the value of the vehicle. While both sides have important points, the debate does have a lot to do with market values. The fact that a large Packard in complete and restorable condition has barely broken $4,000 in bidding is a sad testament to where the market is today on classics such as this. Whoever purchases it will likely do so as a labor of love for a beautiful car. There is nothing wrong with that. They just have to be mindful of the positives and negatives.
From your perspective, is this a good value or a money pit? Please share your thoughts in the comments.
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Comments
There’s a bunch of Packards in that storage area. Would like to see what’s hiding under those canvases.
Seller is being to vague as to what he’s selling, why have a car shipped from California without the keys? No buy it now price best turned into a custom or parts car
I used to own a similar car; 1940 Packard Super 8 180 limo. This is a VERY rare vehicle, and an excellent candidate for restoration. A good friend has my old limo, now fully restored to National 1st condition, and has turned down over $100,000. This is not a vehicle to be considered for a custom vehicle due to it’s rarity and value when restored. As for using this as a parts car, go ahead, tell me another joke!
The rear compartment clock is exceedingly rare, I looked for one for decades. Last one I saw for sale was over $2k. Jaeger made these 8 day clocks for Packard limousines only. It’s still equipped with the rear seat microphone to talk to the driver.
Jeff; The interior on these isn’t the typical mohair. It’s the finest 100% “West of England” wool broadcloth. As it was used in other luxury cars like Rolls-Royce, Daimler, Cadillac V-12 & V-16 enclosed cars, it’s still available today by the yard.
Most of the mechanical parts are available new or NOS, and even the plastic dash parts have been reproduced.
Why no trunk key you ask? Well the car wasn’t touched for 40 years, and the key was likely mis-placed. ANY skilled locksmith can pick the lock and make a new key, it’s a standard Briggs & Stratton lock.
There is one thing that the new owner MUST do first: Remove the accessory fuel filter and replace it with an original steel line. That filter was installed by cutting the line and spliced in with 2 rubber hose sections. Those rubber lines are about an inch from the hot exhaust manifold, and are now probably rock hard, liable to split with the slightest movement of the line. And the hoses are held onto the line with spring clips. A fire just waiting to happen!
Thank you
Very cool to know
If you own a automotive upholstery shop what better way to show your wares then take this opportunity to showcase your talent to the buying public? Someone call Saul to the rescue!
You mean auto upholstery king Manuel Varga?
Please make sure to restore the interior by using the correct materials. It’s available by the yard. It’s a major project in re-upholstering this car, and choosing the wrong materials will mean that a serious buyer in the future will need to take into consideration the high labor costs, to have the wrong materials replaced with the correct upholstery.
If I had the $$ it will take to make it a graceful beauty again, I’d buy it in a minute. I don’t.
Don’t poopoo this car. It looks fabulous just like it is. The big problem here is having a place to put it and work on it. I’d be willing to bet that it won’t be a big deal getting it running again. The straight eight engine is hard to kill. Clean out the gas tank and rebuild the carb and it will most likely run. Driving it about will take more than that though. All the brake system will need cleaning out or replacement and the exhaust will have to be checked closely. The electrical system is where you will run into a lot of work. The wiring is all cloth covered and should be replaced as much as possible. The wires are all connected with nuts and bolts,no plugging in a new wire harness on this car. New methods and materials could be used in place of the old wires and that would be important from a safety point of view. The car seems to be complete so at this level cost it would be a great buy but the article is correct when it says you’ll need a bunch of money to buy parts and get the work done that you can’t do yourself. I’d buy this car in a heartbeat because I’ve owned a 1935 Packard before. Then I’d have to buy a bigger house with a two car garage. This car must be kept in a dry garage to keep the rain out of it but boy, what a neat project. All I need now is to win the Lotto.
Agree on that. The left front fender could be saved by finding someone with a British Wheel and the talent to use it. The wheel could get 95 % of those lumps out. Besides, where are you going to find another fender these days?
Bob,
You are correct, but a top “Hammer & dolly” guy can work those fenders back into shape. An English wheel won’t be able to get the shaping wheels in between the wheel wells and the fender.
While you might find a used non-sidemount left front fender [that may need even more bodywork], finding a sidemount fender is basically impossible.
I had a 140 in HS, 1962, paid $400.00…ran like a top.
Was that a limo? Any pictures of it? Pete
This big Packard may have a Los Angeles-celebrity, or Hollywood studio background. These were also golden-age, cinema-short-hand used to represent “rich, important, connected people.” VERY odd, these ultra-capitalist carriages were replicated, under some type of license, in the USSR by Commie-chief Stalin, who had several and was called, I believe a ZIL?!?
That’s interesting Gavin. I know that Stalin had some Packards but not that any were actually made in Russia.I always thought that any Packard was made in the USA by Packard but they have been found all over the world at one time or another. Russia did make the Zil but I always thought it looked like a taxi in NYC and not like a Packard. I just never heard that they were made anywhere else. Pete.
Gavin & Norman,
1946-58 ZIS 110 limousines were not built from the old Packard dies. But they are often believed to be modified Packards. They are not.
Packard had about 50 Super 8 limousines in stock when car production was stopped. It’s generally accepted that Russia bought 2 1942 Packard 180 limousines as part of the Lend-Lease program. Stalin loved the cars. After the war ended, Stalin told his engineers at the ZIS [later ZIL] factory to design the new ZIS 110 limo based on the Packard 180, but to make several modifications, including elimination of the sidemount tires, leaning the windshield back about 15 degrees more, and removal of the running boards. He also liked the back end of the post-war Cadillac & Buick limo, so they copied it.
They basically reverse-engineered the ZIS 110 [and armored 115 versions], and many Packard parts will bolt-up to the ZIS [except for the metric hardware] In my research and examining ZIS 110 limousines up close, I am convinced that rather than tool-up for the limited number of cars the ZIS factory produced [less than 25/year], they sourced various genuine Packard parts as needed. The radio is identical [except for the dial with the Cyrillic lettering] to the Philco radio in the Packard, right down to the 2 tiny rivet holes where the Philco ID plate was installed!
The Packard 356 engine’s intake manifold has a large 1/2″ threaded hole on the top, about 3/4 of the way back. This was a vacuum port when the car was equipped with the automatic clutch. If not, the hole was plugged with a 1/2″ NPS thread pipe plug. Postwar 356 Packards were equipped with vacuum wipers and a vacuum pump on the top of the fuel pump, with a line from the vacuum pump to a tapped port towards the front of the manifold, for additional vacuum assist.
The ZIS cars didn’t have the automatic clutch, and they had electric wipers. Yet all of the ZIS straight 8 engines I’ve seen [either in person, or in photos] have both ports. On one ZIS I was allowed to remove the 1/2″ plug and check the threads. They were US NPS threads, not metric! Where Packard had raised casting numbers, the ZIS manifolds have grinding marks.
It’s my belief that small batches of Packard parts were ordered from various sources, from Packard dealers or even the various suppliers, possibly in bulk after Packard stopped production of the 356 engine for 1951.
Pete, I suspect you are comparing the later ZIL limousines to the NYC taxicabs, not the ZIS. The Gaz factory also made a limo called the GAZ-13 Chaika [Seagull] that is sometimes confused with the Checker A-8 taxicab. I briefly owned on in the UK, and it seems to have quite a few MOPAR parts like the generator & power steering pump assembly. There are also a few 1955-56 Packard trim parts in the GAZ-13.
If I had an extra 200K sitting around, I would buy this and have it professionally restored. She would be sooooo beautiful.
If I had an extra $200k laying around I’d buy Southern Co. stock on the market and use the dividends for the Packard. By the time the Packard was finished I’d still have my $200k if not more and the Packard too.
I was the caretaker of a vehicle identical to this. A 39 Packard limousine that a grand hotel in northern New Hampshire used to shuttle it’s guests. It was in impeccable condition when the 2nd owner bought it in 1965. He had it professionally repainted in 1970 and it lived in a climate controlled garage. The engine was rebuilt in 1989 by a Packard specialist in Massachusetts. Magnificent coach. Handled extremely well and could keep up with modern traffic effortlessly. Ed passed in 2016 and it was sold by the kids. A restoration on this unit will easily exceed $100k on not too popular full classic. For some reason purists sneer at limousines.
You are very fortunate to be one of very few who can say they even took care of any older Packard.They came and went before most people today were born never mind knew what a Packard was. I sure hope they let you drive that beast too. Then you’d be part of an even smaller group of people who have ever driven a Packard.
You are correct in your assessment of how few people got to appreciate, let alone drive a vehicle of this caliber. I drove it at least once a week in clear weather during 3 seasons, I had a route that covered 50 miles of 50+ mph speed on beautiful roadways. My logic always remained: a vehicle deteriorates faster when it is not kept roadworthy and DRIVEN!
I believe the classy, old Town & Countryesque ad copy, which featured genuine art, not photos read “Ask The Man That Owns One.” Note, not “drives one” and I guess women were not recognized. We often look at the past through rose-colored glasses, but, that iconic green-painted engine block, and impressive, almost lyrical body-work really meant something for almost 60 years.
I sneer at purists myself Bill. If you did nothing to this car but get it running you could double your money. As for speed my old 35 coupe had 120 on the speedometer and I do believe it went that fast and then some when it was new. However I tried that when the car had 134000 miles on it and it shook so bad up near a hundred that I backed down when it hit 110and never tried that again. Of course I was only 18 then and absolutely indestructible and stupid so I really did have to try it. Ya, they really did do 120 at least, depending on the weight of the car.
I liked the 1940 Packard 120 that sold just last week and was featured here on BF. I think it sold for $7500-8500 and the guy had driven it back home. This Limo is an entirely different beast. Labor of love is right, as to what it will take, and lots of funds.
If I had the money to buy it and get it shipped to me, I would be on it in a heartbeat. First, I would get it running, then get the brakes working and rewire the entire car. Next would be doing the bodywork which I would do myself (former body man). Then get weatherstripping and any glass issues resolved, followed by having a friend redo the upholstery. Yes, it would take time, but since I am retired I have plenty of spare time.
Had a ’50 9-passenger limo and loved
it! You couldn’t get a better car to use
as a band hauler for you and all your
band mates. Shoot, it even pulled a
medium sized trailer for our instruments with no complaints at all.
That 356 cube straight 8 ran as smooth as fresh churned butter and
the ride was cloud soft. Did it wallow
going through a corner or pitch like
an ocean liner on uneven roads? You
bet it did, but it looked so stately doing it! Paid $250 for it in ’72 and never regretted it for a minute. Bought it from my old guitar teacher
after it had been sideswiped while
parked in front of his house. First
thing I did was rebuild the engine myself with my dad providing help and advice. Bought the last rebuild
kits for sale in my town from an old
guy who had NOS car parts going back to the ’20s. Kept it for 2 years
and later sold it to a collector for $2K
to keep peace with my Mom. She
drove it to work one day and got
embarrassed when the security guard
noticed a pair of young lady’s panties
in the back seat! It’ll take deep pockets to restore this car, but to
restomod it would be the way to go.
That way, you could build it to suit
your needs. Then, recoup your costs
by renting it out for proms, weddings,
funerals and other occasions. I’d do
it, but my budget or my health just won’t allow it.
This sounds like a job for Me. Leno…..🍻
Still at $4250 this morning . . . amazed that there isn’t more interest in this car. The microphone laying on the rear armrest is interesting, was it to give orders to the driver? Also, interesting that the right side of the engine looks so much better than the left side of the engine.
Yes, the microphone was to give directions etc. to the driver and he could talk back too. The owner could talk to the driver without having to roll down the privacy window that rides in the back of the front seat. A pretty rare item there. I’ve been watching Packards for 50 years and I don’t remember ever seeing one before. Might look for a pocket where a vase with flowers could be put.Usually on each side by the window. Original vases are extremely hard to find. Very pricey too.
Without question a daunting task for anyone with no experience to go by. A hopeless organ donor? I say no. Most people wonder how much difficulty I’ve had with raising my current vintage Lincoln from the grave, considering how exclusive that car was (and still is) compared to cookie-cutter Fords. I have done it, and to a point where the budget was a lot more manageable than most would think.
Same ought to apply with this Packard. Some items may be relatively easy to find if the new owner knows how and where to look. Some other things, maybe not so much, requiring re-invention. That is not to say it’s impossible…nor is that to say the owner has to shell out ALL the cash needed to revive this artefact, all at once. The cost can be stretched over months and years, and every little bit that is restored will only make the project more enjoyable. However, don’t ever expect to beat a Camry in fuel-economy. Those massive engines of back then, with the possible exception of Duesenbergs, were anything but efficient or economical. You know the old cliché the Caddy V16s started, “It’ll pass anything but a gas station”? Well, with dramatic progress in engine efficiency, it’s likely to be passed more often than pass…but the gas-station part of that cliché is bound to still hold true. Not that I’m one to lecture on fuel-economy; my car is as heavy as they come with the largest engine Ford mass-produced, and bored out even larger. But it can still give new trucks an economy run they won’t forget, even the all-electric ones.
Good points to think about Tony. Take the interior for instance. If you remove the parts of the interior yourself and reinstall them your self you will have much less expense getting those parts done. I once had an arm rest recovered on a 60 Lincoln landau and the upholserer told me that if I brought him the arm rest to recover he’d do it for $25. But if he had to take the arm rest off and reinstall it for me then it would cost me $50. Same for door panels and side panels. The only thing that has to be done in the shop is the headliner and every thing else has to be removed. Same for body work and a paint job but the more you can do for yourself the more money you save.Restoration doe NOT have to cost a fortune. This car is a prime example of a o it yourself project. Concentrate on getting it running and driving so you can have fun with it. Then go for the cosmetics. Pay cash as much as you can too.
If I had a place for this Packard it would be sold by now and in my place.
Pete,
You are correct, must upholstery guys don’t want to do restoration work on pre-war cars because they take up a lot of space in their shop. However, unlike many sedans, The senior Packards were pretty much hand made as far as the interior. While the back seat comes out quickly, and the jump seats do unbolt, it takes a while to disassemble them. And yes, the door panels do come off the doors, the rest of the interior has to be treated like a big upholstered sofa, with much of it tacked to the interior panels with tack strips, with cotton padding underneath. There is at least a whole week’s worth of work for an experienced upholsterer to install all the interior. And the front seat is in a fixed [non adjustable] position, only the seat bottom lifts out.
Ya, the battery is under the front seat and the brake master cylinder is too. Also it’s likely a six volt system, something to think about changing.